Bard suggestion

[inimical]

Definitely has potential, I particularly appreciate the way a passive song would change the dynamic of a formation. Cool possibilities.

[Nibelung]

Let's add to this a bit.

Not only does the music rating and level play a role in power of a song, but let's toss in volume of the song. A song sung at a mere whisper should not have the same affect as the same song performed at volumes found in operas.

So, this brings up the idea of another bard skill: "vocalizing" (or some better name!) . The reasoning behind this is, just because I can sing a song perfectly, doesn't mean I can sustain the song at a much higher volume. I would have to train my voice to have the ability and stamina to project my voice loud enough to have a meaningful impact, otherwise, I'd be wasting my breath.

Vocalizing would allow for increments in the volume, which can be chosen when a bard sings a song or a chord. Allow a bard to USE any volume in the full range they wish, as anyone IRL could do when they wish to [attempt to] sing a song. The maximum volume set by the vocalizing skill would determine above what volume the bard begins to suffer more from their songs than just the basic mana cost. The affects could range from greater mana usage, varying singing time, greater chance of faltering, weakened power and even movement loss (growing tired). The upside to this, a song would have greater power the greater its volume is.

Some songs and chords could have a minimum volume needed to give them any kind of power, thus giving rise to some songs being out of reach to bards until they practice up their abilities, or quite taxing on them if they did it.

The syntax would be an optional volume number (0-10 or 0-20 depending on the scale). If omitted, the bard would sing the song at the default volume designated.

Next, have different kinds of instruments, as a bard's weaponry could be viewed analogously as the weaponry of warriors. A bard could go "hand-to-hand", aka use their voice. More power, but have the risk of being silenced. Instruments would each require different skill for the classes of instruments available. Also, have defined in the objects a minimum volume needed to play it, as well as a maximum volume that COULD be played as some just can't get very loud without damaging them (or the bard). Try doing string instruments too loud! :D Also, have a song duration modifier on the instruments, since you can't do some instruments too fast or you will screw up unless you are just that damn good.

Perhaps have restrictions on songs that limit what kind(s) of instrument can play it, even whether they can be done using the voice (like instrumental songs). Instruments would take up a hand slot, thus making the bard unable to use a weapon for that. Maybe have two-handed instruments, just like there are two-handed weapons, which would use up both hand slots, preventing the bard from using a weapon or even a shield. These should usually give more power to them though to balance out this deficiency.

Anyways.. just my two cents on the topic

[Ithilidin]

Bumping. No current thoughts to add to this.

[Syn]

I gotta say I really like it! Esp. the vocalization part.

Wouldn't be too hard to implement. We have to make sure though, there is a way to counter it. ATM I think people think bards are too-powerful because their music works when spells don't (e.g. when spell deflectioned or silenced).

[Ithilidin]

Since the number of affects that can be produced by a bard would be much more limited, I would say that the musical portion of the bard would be a room affect, even with silence. The vocalization, since it originates directly from the person, would be affected by silence. Also, it still shouldn't be magical in nature, to still retain some power in no-magic rooms. Without it, I think it would weaken bards too much.

Though, I would suggest a silence flag for rooms to be implemented. This would cover reciting scrolls, spell casting, new bards music and vocal, says, gossip, ooc, music and grats. Group tell, church talk and tells I think should still be allowed since they are more of a mental usage than verbal. Staves, wands and potions would remain unaffected in these rooms.

[Ithilidin]

In addition: Musical affects would be a will power check. Willpower will be dictated by wisdom, making this stat more useful. The higher the wisdom, the better the chance to resist.

Vocal would still be affected by silence, so that wouldn't need a wisdom check, I would think.

[Ithilidin]

Song of war - This song creates a morale bonus in combat, raising to hit and damage probabilities.

Song of death - This song creates a sorrow in the bards opponents. This lowers their chance to hit as well as taking damage per three seconds as the song is connected with the bean sidhe's song.

Skill:

Dancing - This increases the bards performance of music, making their songs a bit more powerful. A skilled bard will be able to make others in the to start dancing as well. It gives those dancing an increase to defenses, as they are constantly moving, but anyone dancing cannot flee. Willpower check every tick. Drains movement 15 per second.

I can see a revision to how bards play, as well, and neither are still magical in nature.

Singing part 1 - Songs that affect others: Must be used continuously at a slight drain to mana. All attacks still hit, can be silenced. Cannot cast spells. If the song stops, the affects on the enemy cease as well.

Singing part 2 - Songs that affect the bard and group: Used before combat starts, or during. Songs will have a greatly diminished benefit on the bard and the group, lasting no more than ten ticks. Songs must be sung a full tick to gain benefits.

Music - Requires two hands, but cannot be silenced. Loss of attacks during combat and must be played continuously. Any song that can be sung can be played. There is minimal drain while playing. Increased damage/effects of the songs played in this manner.

Songs should be classified into woodwind, percussion, string or brass. When playing music, these should gain an extra bonus if they are played by the correct type of instrument.

[Ithilidin]

Song of silence - This creates an encompassing aura of silence that permeates the entire room. While this is being used, no additional spells can be used, even by the bard if they are using an instrument. Another bard using the song of anti-magic has the ability to counter this song.

[Nopraptor]

Keep in mind that a bard is by definition a lyric poet. Bards of myth, legend and fantasy are typically thieves, artists and weak fighters with mild magical skill. This is the first thing I thought of when I read Mythology's "now THAT sound like a bard" comment. If we're going to step away from the traditional bard model, then there's a couple things I'd like to add to the suggested bardic system, and my key focus will be balance.

Bards will undoubtedly learn numerous songs in their existence, but the power of those songs and their effects would be calculated by a number of factors. First off, there are many songs that involve no instruments, of which we're all aware. Those songs would be the easiest to perform with the most weak effects, but could be enhanced with the addition of an instrument. Using instruments would potentially have a great impact on what you're trying to accomplish. There are literally only a handful of instruments that can be used one handed. The use of music while in combat is ridiculous, since it takes both hands to handle any instrument worth mentioning. Any musician will tell you that. That means that while in combat, you're either focusing on swinging your weapon of choice at your opponent and singing for a more weak effect, or you've put away said weapon to concentrate on using an instrument to generate a more powerful song but foregoing any attacks except the occasional kick when you're not running away or avoiding being hit.

My opinion of bards is that they're the "Jack of All Trades", but master of none. Where as I think their magical abilities used in songs would be no greater than a simple illusionist or charmer or enchanter, I understand the need to make the class worth taking by giving them powerful songs. The suggestion of vocalization is a good one, but it needs to be taken a step further with seperating vocal songs from instrumental songs, and finally songs with vocals and instruments. Like any other magical ability, these also need to be allowed the opportunity to be countered or cancelled. A silenced bard would find it difficult to sing a song of praise to give combat bonuses when he can't sing the necessary words of encouragement. A bard might also find it difficult to play an instrument while held or webbed, or having been bashed and "sent sprawling" due to the physical requirements of the song, which means a movement cost should be taken into consideration. Now with all that said, a bard should be given equal power to negate the suggested disadvantages. I'm in favor of giving bards more spell-like abilities rather than simple charms and enchantments to increase their power, but not without considerable drawbacks. If a bard is going to be able to dispel and entire group, he needs to remove his weapon and devote his actions to the completion of his song, reminding everyone you cannot swing a sword and play a tuba/guitar/flute with a single hand. I feel that would properly balance anything that would otherwise be considered too powerful.

That also leaves the possibility for Bard Only weapons, such as a bladed guitar (yes, it does exist) or attaching a blade or sharp edge of any other instrument for a makeshift dagger or sword/axe. Durability and any increase to the bard's musical ability would be taken into account. Don't forget bard only equipment, like a neck-supported harmonica stand for a completely hands free instrument but uses a neck slot.

[Emtae]

I Keep trying to immagine a Bard playing a song, dancing and/or singing in combat… sadly isn't working... But any way...

I like the basis of Ith's thoughts on bards. They do have some leathal songs. I would still like to keep some of the none combat songs like Rigor, Purple Mist, fat owl hoping, and a dwarven tale.

Adding songs like, sleep, charm, and some sort of cursing idea would be good.

I can under stand some of the songs like healing dance thing, and such, however, these spells benifit mainly characters with lots of mana to spare. But, a good point none the less. A suggestion would be, if a sage, have the % of success, and power of healing go up per second. If using an intrument, have the magical abilities take less mana per second. This would be like using magical powers stored inside the intrument being used.

On Nops idea on weapons, I could see a couple of uses. My characters desc. will have a golden harp for a bow, and in inventory, making it seem like its actually being worn. Weapons like swords, only game I know of were a instrument works like a sword would be Illusions of Gaia. He uses a flute for a sword style weapon. I could see swords with flute style handles on them, or some how attached. I think people can use their immagination. I personally think, making it not possible to wear and an intrument at the same time would be fair. People who don't even have bow skills use them any way.

I am pushing for the Sage % boost, and the bow/instrument change up. And currently, holding an instrument, and being bard offer no boost for a bard atm.

Emtae