There is a lot of merit in what elzamine has to say here, i for one would have no issue in keeping archery a elf/drow skill as it better suits them, for christs sake im a dwarf and shouldnt realy know the ass end of a bow.
I think that the principles elza has outlined here for her chosen race, if applied to all the races should give us all things that aree much more suited to our own races.
<quote>> First, I don't know why people keep calling races classes.</quote>
This might be baecause i have just come home from working 18 hours straight and not reading over what i am writing about.
<quote>> - stop referring to the mort races (whether you mean the mort or the remort races); this thread is on the additions to remort races only.</quote>
I thought it was taken for granted that this was about remort races, and that in this instance mort and remort names were interchangable
<quote>> Why is berserk useless?a relatively small ac penalty.</quote>
Small my ass, 250 odd -ac is not a small loss at all, 1/2 that would be a small loss.
<quote>> I'm mostly talking about resistances</quote>
You might be, but I'm not, i dont see anyone complaining bout theier resist and vulns do you, the issues come in the way of remort racial abilities, berserk vrs drows swerve and vamps shape, what are you going to choose, the one that penalizes you to use it,
<quote>> while Dwarf is resistant to the vast majority of elemental damage and has no (workable) vulnerabilities.</quote>
Really, dwarf is resistant to NOTHING and vulnrable to drowing, i think the issue there is to make the vuln workable, and i have saidd as such elsewhere in these forums.
As i have said, a beserker should be able to get the same number of attacks with a 2 handed axe as if dual wielding, THAT IS NOT AN EXTRA ATTACK, but some insentive to use your racial skills over dual wielding, you know some of these skill enhancements and additions should be about making it easier to choose the things your race does and uses without being penalized for it.
If dual wielding works out to be in your best interest beacuse you get better dammage, more attacks per round, a better parry with sword and dagger style and the use of holy sword then are you going to even bother with trying to roleplay a dwarf and run about with an axe.
And if that is the case then i think that the imms should not waste thier time and effort in inplementing code that no one of that race is going to use.
Just have a look at the 3 classes that get the most discussion titan, drow and vampire, the big 3 PK races and the only one being toned down is TITAN, drow wingers want more of everything like the fuck they are not good races already, Vampire again is good as it is, especially if other changes are made to PvP, and titan sure needs to be toned down, but so dose drow 2 if your looking for some semblance of balance and i think most of the vampre stuff is more RP than PVP type skills,
quote]
and remember that Dwarves/Berserkers already have a ton of benefits,
Really they do? a beserk thats usless, racial regen that dont give 1/100th of the dam you receive per round, and infravision, WOO HOO i can see red eyes, if you take drow and vampire as benchmarks that all the other races should be able to obtain then dwarf is way off the mark.
Also as a side note, where are the great dwarf pkers or better yet, why are there none, Xtrasp out of Redraven you think would be a dwarven powerhouse, but is not, i guess dwarves do suck HUH.
<quote author="toejam">@toejam:
he'll bot kill them. .</quote>
This i find most amusing, i have written a bot or 2 in my time, using kmuddy i can hook my triggers into C code and make it do what ever i want, I do wish i was smart enough to make a bot that could leave my church, run into the abyss and pk someone, if i could do all that in triggers and script i would most definatly have more Pk's than Mr Redraven and not more mob kills.
I think before you jump to conclusions and make acusations, you find some proof and offer it to the imms to investigate, and leave your hate and conjucture to the flame channel.
<quote author="toejam">@toejam:
Anyone else think Arkain is costing us players? Really,</quote>
Really? what a joke, the guy is harldy about, sits idle, smokes tons of bongs, ignores any tells he receives if he is watching hoping that you think he is not there( i know this cause i was talking to him while others asked me if arkain is about causde he wasnt replying to tells) and then for a breif moment in time looks at the monitor rather then the penis in his hand and pk's someone very very unlucky and then goes back to fingering his ashole.
Get over yourself, they other in this game who also have [H] who help no one and because of there im the coolest shit about attitudes have cost sentience players, I personally no longer invite freinds of mine here to play, 5 have come 1 has stayed, the rest said we had some of the the most arogant and rude players they have ever encountered.
<quote>> Dwarves: I could see an extra attack. I think that another with the 2handed weapon would be overkill, so perhaps another offhand attack (unless I am mistaken, offhand weapons can only be 1-handed weapons)</quote>
I dont think that a dwarf needs to generally have an extra attack, infact i dont think anyone needs to have anything more than 5 attacks hasted and dual wielded, also i cannot think of any particula attack that a dwarf should have that would work in with them, UNLESS you were to implement some sort of combo attacks that thay could while wielding an axe, also ertai you cannot dual wield while using a 2handed weapon, i have focused on 2handed axes as they are the only axes ingame that are worth using, axe is generally diced a fair percentage under sword and the 20% extra damage would prolly make the 1handed axes on par with a sword of the same level thus negating any benifit gained, and why shouldnt a berserker be able to use a 2handed axe more masterfuly that anyone else thus gaining an extra attack with it, is it not what he has trained all his life to do, be the master of the axe.
<quote>> Extra attack whlie wearing 2-handed axe - No. With the 20% extra damage, I think that's enough. Almost everyone seems to want to give their race an extra attack. Bah.</quote>
Think of the things you loose by using a 2handed axe, no holy sword, no silver or holy, no flaming(well not in an axe that is worth using, when compared to tainted sword), no sword and dagger style, loss of atleast 18 hit and damrolls for not dual wielding, and loss of the dual wielded attack, 20% extra damage is nothing when you loose all the above just for using a weapon that is a racial item.
Posible solutions, dwarfs get axe style that does the same as sword and dagger style,(extra parry) are able to cast holy sword on axes, get a hit/damroll bonus of 1/10 of level while using 2handed axes, and if you were to give them anything attacking then as some sort of combo attack in the vein of double backstab that can be used in combat, something like chop chop chop, with a fairly long lag, 2 rounds maby.
There you go, i guess i had more to say than i hoped for.
Dwarves need to get an extra attack when using 2handed axes, i dont think having 5 attacks with a 2handed is all that over powered, this is all i have to say.
<quote author="Jazelle">@Jazelle:
I like Create Rose and fought to have it back. It's a nice useless/useful spell. GRIN</quote>
Create rose should be given a purpose and it should have like a 1 in 200 chance of making one of them roses that morrollin likes, to stop people spamming it for days to for a easy QP,PRAC collect give only say 20 casts per day of this spell or some other simular number, so its more of a lottery than a spam fest.
<quote author="Xavis">@Xavis:
. It's just a way to reduce usage of skills in combat and allow players to depend more on their spells.</quote>
First you have to survive longer than 2 rounds for this to be effective, we used to have longer combat periods in Pk and everyone complained that PK fights went too long.
Game is yet again down…Tuesday May 4
<quote author="Ertai">@Ertai:
communal farms… sounds very realistic and all, but could you explain the benefit for me? It looks to me as though you're just restricting who can be in what church, so characters would be created specifically for churches. But, I'd definately like to hear more.
eRT</quote>
There could be a number of benifits one glaring one would be a way to earn exerience points, even if a token amount like with questing, most of us get realy boored with hacking and slashing outr way through endless amounts of mobs, then we quest till that becomes a pain in the ass or seek out some new equipments,
It could be a way to earn gold, there is little or no gold on the majority mobs and what is there could be removed and instead have to work to earn gold. Again somthing t do when boored of killing shit.
The idea of comunal church farms i think is the one aspect of this that could be realy fun even if implemented on its own. Firstly they would have to buy it for some cost in Pnuema/DP/Gold simular in cost to a church upgrade, so it wouldnt be cheep.
It be accessed from the overland map, just like the existing cities, you could even move the church buildings to be linked off of these areas and not have them ass semi-hidden detatched buildings lkinked to other areas.
A farm might consist of 10 rooms each room having say 4 cheese trees that drops a cheese at a certain inteval, or you have to go and use a harvest command near the end of the day to collect your cheese, these cheeses get deposited into a Silo/Warehouse or some other storage facility that when full can be redeamed for gold that is split amoung all the members of the church or some other tangable benifit, at the end of say 1or 2 months the tree dies and needs to be reseeded from seed that you buy with Pneuma/DP, or put the seeds on mobs on 5th level; poa and make that a PK area again.
Churches could form raiding parties to steal all the cheese if its not harvested, or chop the cheese down with a cheese chopping axe thats a quest item or better yet brought with cheese points, the trees themselves should be able to fight back and have a level thats the average level of all the members of that church and also have a truck load of HP so they arnt easy beats.
I have other thoughts but i need to go, if i get time latter i will add to this.
Thes could become gated comunities and you need a battering ram again brrought with pneume/dp, that takes 2 players formed to wield, to smash down the gates to raid the cheese. Also to break down the church doors to steal the relics. Or you might have some exploscive charge, brought with pneuma/dp to blow up the gate or door to allow access.
This then leads into the other ideas with fishing and mining, church owned fishing trawlers, needing a crew of 3, whose primary purpose is to make gold. Or church owned mines whose ore is used to forge eq.
I have seen simular to this on othr muds, mining forgable eq and tanning hides to sew armors, they way they ballanced it was to give each Ore a specific ac value and any other traits to that was added a bonus value for class, as it was amulti class mud also.
So iron might have an ac value of 4 and be very common, quick and easy to mine, if a 1st class used it to make an armor the armor would have an ac value of 4 , 2nd class might get an ac bonus of 10 so thier eq would have an ac value of 14. If it was made into a dagger the dice would be set (player level/4)D(Dagger Num Dice+Class Modifier)
The same sort of sytem would go for leather and other sewable itms, set its ac value and add a modifier for class level or player level, each hide can have its own bonuses or spell effects or resistances
Its a simple system that can add a lot of new and versatile eq into the game. Only allow forgeable or sewable to the Body, Hands, Legs,Feet, Arms and Head slots + all the weapon types. no one can say there isnt X weapon in my range as they can make one at thier level and another in 2 more levels if they have that much ore.
i expounded on this very idea in another section of the forums
[http://sentience.sanctuary-roleplay.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=2455#2455" target="_blank">](</s><LINK_TEXT text=)[http://sentience.sanctuary-roleplay.org/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=2455#2455](</s><LINK_TEXT text=)
I think its a totaly tops idea, add a bunch of skills that can be used to make gold, have a market system that sets price dependant on availability, someone sells 400 fox furs price takes a tumble, no one sold apples for some time price goes up.
Add in forgeable eq and such and you then have comodities that can be broguth and sold, someone wants some nice leather armor and doesnt have the skill to tan the leather, they by it off the open market and price goes up someone kills 20 cows and tans the hides goes and sell it and makes some gold.
have a mining skill for ores, tree choping for wood for boats and arrows, fishing, farming,
and the list goes on
<quote author="Elmah">@Elmah:
ALSO, if fish and things are put into the ocean, how about a way to fish? If you get hungry, go fishin'. Or you could catch fish with a net, and sell them in the market.</quote>
For that matter you could bring in a hole swag of professions like fisherman and farmer and miner and the like and we could grow corn and catch fish and mine ore to sell for gold on an open fluctuatiing stokmarket,
Churches could buy peices of land to be used as comunal farms where the proceeds of the crops get split between all the members, with some tax going to the state of course and the purchase of more seed.
And sections of sea could to be used for fish farming or harvesting, and they could purchase mines to mine ore.
This could further add to the roleplay within the game. Anyone who enters another churches farm to raid or pillage it gets flaged pk just like with the relics, so that church members can defend thier teritory.
The recruitment of churchies wouldnt just be lets get as many as we can, but would be ok we need a farmer or a miner or a fisherman to join our ranks as we are lacking that skill ect.
Of course you wouldnt be allowed to have an alt in your own chuirch either. Yes i know i went off topic but i like the boating idea as it was presented in this forum.
how do i delete this
How about a spell Heat Metals, some sort of energy attack that causes metal items to rapidly heat up to the point that they you take damage and have to remove them or better yet make it targetable so you can say cast 'heat metals' 'infiniate armor' and it falls off into your inventory, like disarm
<quote author="Xevira">@Xevira:
An idea for balancing a race is to create a balancing scheme similar to that used for objects. Put values on everything with the goal that the total value should be within a certain range of zero.</quote>
If a race is resistant to something give it a vulnrabiltiy to its oppisite.
resistant to evil = sus to holy
restisant to fire/heat = sus to cold/frost
so on and so fourth
<quote author="Xevira">@Xevira:
I've always liked the Gargoyle race idea, as far as a remort for it, I dunno.</quote>
Gargoyle sounds cool, instead of making them turn to stone during the day you could give them sea lag and the loss of 1 or 2 attacks per round. But at night compensate them with an extra attack and a 10% bonus on exp
Yes Inimical there should be a risk to this, and thats a valid one, you wouldnt make me auto flee into Cpk but that could happen just as it does with normal flee if a wimpy is set , i could auto flee into cpk, it could also be a toggle like any other auto, sort of like a supoer wimpy for PvP. I dont go to POa with a wimpy set so if attacked on the river i wont flee ever..
Its just a automatic flee chance given when attacked in PvP by a higher level player. In RL terms when Big Bubba is taking a swing do you stay there and get hit or do you try and take off while he is swinging and aviod being hit altogether.
So a reduced chance of auto flee could be given to suprise attackes like that new frightten or B/j or any attack from from hidden or sneak position.
<quote author="Ertai">@Ertai:
- this change should only be in PvP because it would be much harder to calibrate with all the mobs we have.
Whatcha'll think?
eRT</quote>
There is quite a lot of merrit in what you say here Ertai and will add to this line of thought. Takeing those elements into account that you outlined will help with simular class range PvP fights
One should always be able to exploit 1 races vulnrubilities, just as we all have sanc to give 1/2 damage taken, mayby they remorted races coulld be given some defence to these attacks in PvP fights. Like some sort of Holy Barrier that reduces the damage you take from holy weapons by some percentage based on level for those that are getting wopped silly by it at the moment, not a lot but a small reduction to give balance to one current unbalance. Dwarves have drowning as a vuln, so have a spell that calls fourth a mighty river to drown us.
The harder side of the story is when the PvP is against lower classes. one possible solution would be to give them a better chance of Fleeing PvP combat, or just reduced lag, so if they do manage to flee they can run like girls to a save haven, but first they need to be able to survive the first 2 rounds of combat. There could be an auto flee in the first round of PvP combat that has some chane of success,
if 3 classes lower 90% chance of auto flee with no flee lag
if 2 classes lower 60% chance of auto flee with small flee lag
if 1 class lower 30% chance of auto flee with moderate flee flag
if same class 0% chace of auto flee with full current flee lag.
This wouldnt make them super strong, but might up the chance of surviving the PvP encounter and also make the higher classes attacker use the skills they have levled so hard to get like ensnare/web.
This could be coupled with a success chart for dispel magic too so that its harder to dispel or you can only dispel so many spells per cast mayby like 1 spell dispelled per class you are minus 1 spell per class lower you are fighting, so a 4th class could dispel 4 spells per clast if fighting a 4th class, if they were fighting a 1st class it would be only 1 spell per round.
Add in some sort of damage reduction in PvP so i cant be killed with 1 bolt/arrow that takes 1500 hp out of me while sancted.
Actually just an after thought, that coult balance this out all lies in defensive skills, my dodge/parry/gymnasitc ect are all mastered or close to master and yet as a 3rd class remort i cont dodge parry nothing against a 4th class. Remove the level calculation in PvP then i can dodge and parry the 5 attacks per round from a 120 with an altrixia doing its 350 ave per round. Also make the learning of said skills slower so that a 2nd class mort wont be mastered but will still have a chance of parry based on its learned level.
Im not toaly against having the system as it is, i just think its to biased to the highest leveled player and that makes the lower levcel players opt out of PK when i think that we need to encourage people to opt into it and i think the few Pk'ers out there would love to have a lot more people opt in.
Ok there is some more food for though. Thanks Ertai as you post provoked some new thoughts from me on this subject.
<quote author="Syn">@Syn:
This thread is for intelligent discussion of PK changes. :)</quote>
Its not about the silly getting ganked, that will still happen no matter what system pf Pk is in place, its about making changes to the Pk system wether thats for the good or not, and if at the end of the day if all this discussion amounts to is that everyone is totaly satisfied with the current system then so be it.
So lets have some intelligent discussionand a flow of interesting and unique ideas or votes of aproval for the current system if thats what you want. I for one am not happy with it, and think that there can be changes wether minor or drastic made to pk to get more people activly involved in it.